<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><br><br>--- On <b>Tue, 31/1/12, muhammad naeem <i><naeem6500@yahoo.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: muhammad naeem <naeem6500@yahoo.com><br>Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] Joint ICA in social interaction paradigm<br>To: tarikbelbahar@gmail.com<br>Date: Tuesday, 31 January, 2012, 10:05 PM<br><br><div id="yiv721423588"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit;" valign="top">Hi Tarik,<br><br>Thank you very much for your reply and references.<br><br>You may like to see the experimental paradigm which is available in Naeem et al 2012- Neuroimage (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2011.08.010). Briefly, a typical trial consist of a no-vision (20 sec) and vision period
(20 sec)- in the vision period three task instructions are given to
dyads: ignore (intrinsic), synchronize (inphase) and syncopate
(antiphase) their right finger movement. I am now interested in connectivity analysis (Mutual information (phase, power), inter brain coherence etc) with respect to distant sources. In addition to EEG, movement profiles of dyads are also collected- it would be interesting to see how and where inter-brain connectivity maps with behavioral metrics.<br><br>Your advice regarding separate ICA decomposition and then accumulating similar components with cluster analysis is clearly possible. Another approach could be based on Groppe's reliability test by estimating similar scalp topography and activations of dyads ICs after separate decomposition ( Groppe et al http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2008.12.038). Although feasible but these may be indirect approaches perhaps more suitable for group analysis in<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
line-height:115%;
" lang="EN-US"> paradigms where in general observer/individual is presented
with a stimulus (snap-shots ) and their response recorded and analyzed. Clearly, post- processing is required to ascertain which ICs are contributing to group behaviour or otherwiswe. <br><br></span>My be in some contrast, real-time continuous social interaction requires dyads to be tightly bound in mutual information exchange providing an oppurtunity to consider them in a shared or we-centric space. From this perspective, joint ICA decomposition (e.g: Infomax) may be more suitable as intutively (to me) individual activity modes are likely to be parsed out from interacting modes thus connecting joint actions with neuro-electric co-modulation and source localization. <br><br>This is what I was thinking which offcourse amenable with your's and other's suggestions. Below, two approaches of ICA decompositions are referenced. Calhoun et al. approach is perhaps theoretically more consistent- however, the PCA processing is an issue
althogh a way round could be spectral decomposition as they themselves have suggested in previous works. Montague et al. on the other hand have directly concatenated the data (in present context (for example) Fz of one to Fz of the other member of the pair..so on). I am wondering how this jives with underlying generative model of ICA.<br><br>Thanks again and best regards,<br><br>Naeem.<br><br><br><br><br> <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 30/1/12, Tarik S Bel-Bahar <i><tarikbelbahar@gmail.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;"><br>From: Tarik S Bel-Bahar <tarikbelbahar@gmail.com><br>Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] Joint ICA in social interaction paradigm<br>To: "muhammad naeem" <naeem6500@yahoo.com><br>Cc: eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu<br>Date: Monday, 30 January, 2012, 8:29 AM<br><br><div id="yiv721423588">Hello Naeem, <div>Some quick
thoughts...</div><div>These are very early days indeed for two-or more brain studies,<div>especially using EEG, although various groups are making inroads,</div><div>see recent work Dumas, from Tognoni, and from Babiloni's groups,</div>
<div>among others, all of which use diverse methods with EEG.</div><div>If you are using ICA, why not decompose</div><div>each person's data separately, without PCA,</div><div>and then analyze correlations</div><div>
between similar ICs across the </div>
<div>two individuals, across particular</div><div>conditions. "Similar" ICs may be </div><div>determined via eeglab's study clustering function (which uses PCA)</div><div>or with the CORRMAP plugin.</div><div>
Calhoun et al.'s EEGIFT with group-ICA</div><div>certainly looks like an interesting</div><div>option (attached). </div><div>Overall, the field is wide open for suggestions,</div><div>so if you come across some new solutions,</div>
<div><b>please let the list know!</b></div><div>An important point is whether </div><div>you use measures external to EEG </div><div>to assess some behavioral metric coordination.</div><div>Overall the issue is what you are hunting for.</div>
<div>See also Hasson and others' forays into </div><div>cross-correlation across brains.</div><div>I've included some brain based citation below which might be of use to you,</div><div>as well as some non-brain literature that bears directly on two-person or more studies. good luck</div>
<div><p style=""><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Anders et al., (2011). Flow of affective information between communicating brains. NeuroImage 54, 439–446.</span></span></span></font></font></font></em></p>
<p style=""><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Astolfi L, Toppi J, De Vico Fallani F, Vecchiato G, Salinari S, Mattia D, Cincotti F, Babiloni F. (2010). Neuroelectrical Hyperscanning Measures Simultaneous Brain Activity in Humans. </span></span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-decoration:none;">Brain Topography</span></font></font></font><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;">, </span></span></font></font></font><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/m7t53m267n3m5286/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span style="text-decoration:none;">23 (3), 243-256</span></font></font></font></a><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial,
sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;">, 2010.</span></span></font></font></font></p>
<p style=""></p><p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="background-color:transparent;">Dumas G</span></span><span lang="fr-FR">, Nadel J, Soussignan R, Martinerie J, Garnero L (2010) Inter-Brain Synchronization during Social Interaction. PLoS</span><font color="#000000"><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;"> ONE 5(8): e12166</span></span></font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;"></p><p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;"><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Schilbach</span></span></span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;"> L, Wilms M, Eickhoff SB, Romanzetti S, Tepest R, Bente G, Shah NJ, Fink GR, Vogeley K (2009) </span></span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Minds Made for Sharing</span></span></span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;">: </span></span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font
face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Initiating Joint Attention Recruits Reward</span></span></span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;">-</span></span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">related Neurocircuitry</span></span></span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;">. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience 0:</span></span></font></font></font><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span
style="text-decoration:none;">1-14</span></span></span></font></font></font></em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="en-US"><span style="text-decoration:none;">. </span></span></font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Schippers MB, Roebroeck A, Renken R, Nanetti L, Keysers C. (2010). "Mapping the Information flow from one brain to another during gestural communication". Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 May 18;107(20):9388-93.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="en-US"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Stephens, J. G., Silbert, J. L. & Hasson, U. (2010). Speaker–listener neural coupling underlies successful communication. PNAS, July 27.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR">Tognoli, E., J. Lagarde, et al. (2007). "The phi complex as a neuromarker of human social coordination." Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A </span><span lang="fr-FR">104</span><span lang="fr-FR">(19): 8190-5.</span></font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><br></span></font></font></font></p><p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;">
</p><p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.49in;margin-bottom:0in;text-decoration:none;" lang="en-US"><font color="#222222"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Carletta, J., Hill, R. L., Nicol, C., Taylor, T., de Ruiter, J. P., & Bard, E. G. (2010). Eye tracking for two-person tasks with manipulation of a virtual world. Behavior Research Methods, 42, 254-265. </font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;margin-bottom:0in;text-decoration:none;" lang="en-US"><font color="#222222"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Wilms M, Schilbach L, Pfeiffer U, Bente G, Fink GR, Vogeley K: (2010). It´s in your eyes. Using gaze-contingent stimuli to create truly interactive paradigms for social cognitive and affective neuroscience. Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience 5, 98-107</font></font></font></p>
<p></p><p></p><div><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><font color="#000000"><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><br></span></span></font></font></font></div><div><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><font color="#000000"><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><br>
</span></span></font></font></font></div><div><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><font color="#000000"><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="text-decoration:none;"><br></span></span></font></font></font></div><div><p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR">
<font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Kelso J.A.S, de Guzman G.C., Reveley C., Tognoli E. (2009) Virtual Partner Interaction (VPI): Exploring Novel Behaviors via Coordination Dynamics. PLoS ONE 4(6) e5749.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;"><em><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><span lang="fr-FR"><span style="font-style:normal;"><span style="text-decoration:none;">Keysers C, Kaas J, Gazzola V. (2010). "Somatosensation in Social Perception." Nature Reviews Neuroscience. 2010 Jun;11(6):417-28. </span></span></span></font></font></font></em></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Knoblich, G., Butterfill, S., & Sebanz, N. (2011). Psychological research on joint action: theory and data . In B. Ross (Ed.),The Psychology of Learning and Motivation, 54 (pp. 59-101), Burlington: Academic Press.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Kokal I, Keysers C. Granger causality mapping during joint actions reveals evidence for forward models that could overcome sensory-motor delays. PLoS One. 2010 Oct 21;5(10):e13507.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Marsh, K. L., Johnston, L., Richardson, M. J., & Schmidt, R. C. (2009). Hop off the mirror neuron bandwagon and join ours, it’s less crowded! European Journal of Social Psychology, 39, 1234-1235.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Oullier, O., G. C. de Guzman, et al. (2007). "Social coordination dynamics: Measuring human bonding." Social Neuroscience 99999(1): 1 – 15.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Perry, A., Stein, L., & Bentin, S. (2011). Motor and attentional mechanisms involved in social interaction: Evidence from mu and alpha EEG suppression. Neuroimage, 58, 895-904. DOI <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2011.06.060" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);">http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2011.06.060</a></font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Richardson, M. J., K. L. Marsh, et al. (2007). "Rocking together: dynamics of intentional and unintentional interpersonal coordination." Hum Mov Sci (6): 867-91.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Richardson, M. J., Marsh, K. L., & Schmidt, R. C. (2010). Challenging the egocentric view of perceiving, acting, and knowing. In L. Feldman Barrett, B. Mesquita, & E. Smith (Eds), The mind in context (pp. 307-333). New York: Guilford Press.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Richardson, M. J., Marsh, K. L., Isenhower, R., Goodman, J., & Schmidt, R. C. (2007). Rocking together: Dynamics of intentional and unintentional interpersonal coordination. Human Movement Science, 26, 867-891.</font></font></font></p>
<p style="font-size:13px;margin-left:0.51in;text-decoration:none;" lang="fr-FR"><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font>Richardson, MJ., van der Wel, R.P.R.D., Knoblich, G., & Sebanz, N. (in press). Let the force be with us: Dyads exploit haptic coupling for coordination . Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance.</font></font></font></p>
</div><div><font color="#000000"><font face="ARial, sans-serif"><font><br></font></font></font></div><p></p></div><div><div>
<br><br><div class="yiv721423588gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 5:31 AM, muhammad naeem <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow">naeem6500@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="yiv721423588gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit;" valign="top">Hi EEGlablist,<br>
<br>
In an EEG paradigm concerning two-person social interaction I am trying a
joint ICA approach (e.g: Calhoun and colleagues-NeuroImage 45 (2009)
S163–S172 and computational Intelligence and Neuroscience
doi:10.1155/2011/129365 ). A similar approach has been used in other
studies (e.g Montague and colleagues- NeuroImage 16, 1159–1164
(2002)doi:10.1006/nimg.2002.1150). Essential difference between two is
the arrangement of Data. In the first, virtual channels have been
created (separate sphering process and PCA ) whereas in the second data of two subjects were concatenated
giving lesser (half ) IC's to investigate. I am wondering which
approach is more appropriate and why? <br>
<br>
A subsequent question is regarding data reduction- PCA is usually used
but as mentioned in the first references may not be suitable for the
activities which are not time/phase-locked(as the case with my data).
What are the other options?<br>
<br>
Looking forward to your insight.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Naeem.</td></tr></tbody></table><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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