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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I used the “MAY” because there a chance that you accidentally get the same phase. You cannot predict the phase will definitely get changed !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Makoto Miyakoshi [mailto:mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 18, 2014 6:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> Iman M.Rezazadeh<br><b>Cc:</b> otte georges; EEGLAB List; Loo, Sandra; Kelly Tung; Chantelle C Kinzel; Cliff Saron; Rob Coben; Jeste, Shafali M.D.<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Eeglablist] ICA and signal phase content<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Dear Iman and Georges,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> So, if some sources are removed because of artifact removing procedure then the summation of the phase values of the remainder sources may not be matched to the initial un-cleaned EEG.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I agree with you Iman. Thank you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> As a result the component rejection procedure MAY change the phase value/content at any given channel.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It's not MAY, but SHOULD, because can you think of a situation where you keep the phase information identical before and after the IC rejection?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Georges, here is another info that may help you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>EEG.data, EEG.icaweight, EEG.icasphere, and EEG.icainv are all real.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>> I would like to understand the mathematics and can only come up with this explanation but maybe I see it wrongly.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sorry I have no math skill to show why phases do not change, but here is my best explanation. There are two cases phases remain unchanged after component rejection.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1) rejected component is DC across time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2) rejected component differs from the original signal only by a fixed scale across time.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>However such component cannot be independent of other components.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Makoto<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Iman M.Rezazadeh <<a href="mailto:irezazadeh@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">irezazadeh@ucdavis.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The EEG reconstruction after removing bad components/sources MAY change the phase value of the signal at any electrode. Each source and its back projection into the channel space at any time point have individual phase value; however, the EEG phase value is a “summation” of all the phase values from each individual sources ( in other words, the EEG phase value at any given channel is the summation of phase values of each source/component reconstructed signal at that given channel). So, if some sources are removed because of artifact removing procedure then the summation of the phase values of the remainder sources may not be matched to the initial un-cleaned EEG. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Also, each source has a specific IC map ( spatial filter) so the effect of that source is distributed/propagated throughout all channels. The magnitude of the effect at any channel is proportional to the IC map value at that channel ( in EEGLAB: if the IC Map is dark red/blue, its effect is high; the greenish color means the effect is low) . So, by removing a source which may correspond to eye blink , the effect of that source/component to other channels (other than ‘Fz’, for example) will be also eliminated. As a result the component rejection procedure MAY change the phase value/content at any given channel. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Iman </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>============================================</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:#7030A0'>Iman M.Rezazadeh, Ph.D. , M.Sc., B.Sc.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>760 Westwood Plaza, Ste 47-448</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Los Angeles, CA 90095</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/iman-m-rezazadeh/10/859/840/" target="_blank"><span style='color:#0563C1'>http://www.linkedin.com/pub/iman-m-rezazadeh/10/859/840/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a name="1488a55edd105fc7__MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>otte georges<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 18, 2014 9:26 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu" target="_blank">mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Eeglablist] ICA and signal phase content</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Makoto</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thank You very much for the quick reply. I carefully checked the material You indicated in the link to the 2013 workshop (quite extensive but also very interesting material) but could not find much specfic on the phase content (imaginary part) of the reconstructed EEG signals. In your mail You wrote to me “of course it will change phase”. Is that “of course” because of a regression process in reconstructing the time points from the remaining components (after the artefact components have been removed) or is there another reason ? I would like to understand the mathematics and can only come up with this explanation but maybe I see it wrongly. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I read the article of Roberto Montefusco who concluded ( on both reaml EEG and simulated signals) that the phase changes after reconstructing the signal s are non stationary in time , location and frequency. For instanced he found major changes (after removing blink components ) at Fz, around 6 hz. But they were also present at other sensor locations and frequencies.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Phase was determined by using the Hilbert transform.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All help and explanations would be very much appreciated.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Sincerely</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Georges Otte</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=FR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span lang=FR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Makoto Miyakoshi [<a href="mailto:mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu" target="_blank">mailto:mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu</a>] <br><b>Envoyé :</b> dinsdag 16 september 2014 4:09<br><b>À :</b> otte georges<br><b>Cc :</b> EEGLAB List<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Eeglablist] ICA and signal phase content</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>Dear Georges,</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>If you remove IC and reconstruct channel EEG by backprojecting the remaining ICs, of course it changes channel EEG phase!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>Here is our EEGLAB workshop 2013 materials. You can find several powerpoint/pdf files that explains how ICA works on data cleaning.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE><a href="http://sccn.ucsd.edu/wiki/EEGLAB_2013_UCSD" target="_blank">http://sccn.ucsd.edu/wiki/EEGLAB_2013_UCSD</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>Makoto</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 7:50 AM, otte georges <<a href="mailto:georges.otte@pandora.be" target="_blank">georges.otte@pandora.be</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear ICA experts<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>There is some discussion going on about the evidence that reconstructing an multichannel EEG after ICA decomposition and removing one or two artefact components could result in scrambling the phase content (and coherence) of the reconstructed signals. Fi starting from a 19 ch EEG, removing two components with fi electrode pops and sweat artefacts , reconstructing the 19 ch EEG from 17 components (taking out the artefact containing ones) without those artefacts. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Others say that this is not the case and that ICA respects the phase. However many authors (Zeman, Thatcher..) have published very convincing data to the contrary.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Any suggestions how to evaluate this ? Is it known from the algorithm what the reconstruction will do to the phase content (imaginary part of the signal) ?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>All help is very welcome<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Sincerely<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#888888'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#888888'>Georges</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#888888'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE style='color:#888888'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE><br>_______________________________________________<br>Eeglablist page: <a href="http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html" target="_blank">http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html</a><br>To unsubscribe, send an empty email to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><br>For digest mode, send an email with the subject "set digest mime" to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE><br><br clear=all></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>-- </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=NL-BE>Makoto Miyakoshi<br>Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Makoto Miyakoshi<br>Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>