<div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Dear list,</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Here is the summary of discussion about the Berger (1929) which was off the list. Thank you Pedro and Thomas. I apologize I missed the timely response.</span></div><div><ul><li><span style="font-size:12.8px">Gloor has translated the original papers into English in a book.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:12.8px">Berger (1929) used two electrodes only. Hence it was a bipolar recording.</span></li><li><span style="font-size:12.8px">For recording from patients with missing a part of skull, he located both electrodes within that part. For recording from healthy subjects, he located the two electrodes mostly 'front to back'. </span></li><li><span style="font-size:12.8px">When putting the second electrode on the chest, arm or foot, but this ended up with recording ECG mostly.</span></li></ul></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Makoto</span></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Pedro Antonio Valdés-Sosa <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pedro.valdes@neuroinformatics-collaboratory.org" target="_blank">pedro.valdes@neuroinformatics-collaboratory.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>
<div>Dear friends</div>
<div>This is the origial Berger paper.</div>
<div>I am sure the reference is described there but I don’t kow German.</div>
<div>Thomas can you help us discover the reference</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div>Pedro</div>
<div>
<div></div>
</div>
</font></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<span><span>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Dezhong,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Caton (1875) British Medical Journal reported (surface) EEG from rabbit and monkey using Galvanometer. Amazingly, you can download this report online.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Makoto</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 6:19 AM, Dezhong Yao <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hello<br>
Any one ever read the original EEG paper where what's the reference adopted by Hans Berger (1929)?<br>
thanks
<div data="https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/UUfYCMEg-vt-1Vlhu-4KM4u7qIPeda0MOkDys3Et=s0-d-e1-ft#http://0">
<address>------------------------<br>
Dezhong Yao PhD<br>
Cheung Kong Professor of Neuroengineering, Neuroimaging<br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a><br>
Fax: 86-28-83208238; Tel: 86-28-83201018<br>
Director, Key Laboratory for NeuroInformation, Ministry of Education, China<br>
International Joint Research Center for NeuroInformation, Ministry of Science and Technology, China <br>
Dean, School of Life Science and Technology, University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, Sichuan,Chengdu 610054, China<br>
Director, Center for Information in BioMedicine, University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, China<br>
<a href="http://www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/bci/member/yao/yao.html" target="_blank">http://www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/bci/member/yao/yao.html</a><br>
尧德中 电子科技大学 生命科学与技术学院/信息医学研究中心/神经信息教育部重点实验室/神经信息国际联合研究中心</address>
</div>
<br>
<br>
---------- Origin message ----------<br>
>From："Dezhong Yao" <<a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a>><br>
>To："Jonathan Folstein" <<a href="mailto:jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a> Listserv" <<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>><br>
>Subject：Re:Re: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the EEG Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
>Date：2016-06-27 03:53:39
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #00c solid;padding-left:1ex">
Jonathan just pointed to the crucial merit of REST!<br>
REST does not need to know the true sources ( agree with Spencer, if the true sources can be properly determined, almost all EEG problems solved).<br>
actually, REST utilizes the non-uniqueness of EEG inverse problem ( non-uniqueness is a trouble problem for EEG inverse problem), REST "recycles waste material", the non-uniqueness means that the same scalp potential can be produced either by "the true sources"
or by "various equialent sources", REST abandons to find the true sources, but with the help of positions known/assumed equivalent distribured sources ( dipoles on a closed surface which cover all possible actual sources inside).<br>
<br>
For practical application, REST does not need to explicitly get the equivalent sources which are actually used to get the transfer matrix R, finally V(zero)=RV(actual). In another word, equivalent sources are just adopted conceptually as the bridge passing
through the "glass, darkly" to the truth.<br>
<br>
For practice, R is determined by electrode montage and head model. A recent work (Federico Chella etal. Impact of the reference choice on scalp EEG connectivity estimation. 2016 J. Neural Eng. 13 036016) showed that REST is the best choice for various montages
and models adopted in current EEG practices.<br>
<br>
For the original idea of REST, pls look at the attached original paper.<br>
<br>
For more general, welcome to visit <a href="http://www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/rest" target="_blank">
www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/rest</a><br>
<br>
Thanks for your interests in REST!!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------Dezhong Yao PhD<br>
Cheung Kong Professor of Neuroengineering, Neuroimaging<br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a><br>
Fax: 86-28-83208238; Tel: 86-28-83201018<br>
Director, Key Laboratory for NeuroInformation, Ministry of Education, China<br>
International Joint Research Center for NeuroInformation, Ministry of Science and Technology, China<br>
Dean, School of Life Science and Technology, University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, Sichuan,Chengdu 610054, China<br>
Director, Center for Information in BioMedicine, University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, China<br>
<a href="http://www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/bci/member/yao/yao.html" target="_blank">http://www.neuro.uestc.edu.cn/bci/member/yao/yao.html</a><br>
尧德中 电子科技大学 生命科学与技术学院/信息医学研究中心/神经信息教育部重点实验室/神经信息国际联合研究中心<br>
<br>
---------- Origin message ----------<br>
>From："Jonathan Folstein" <<a href="mailto:jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
>To："<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a> Listserv" <<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>><br>
>Subject：Re: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the EEG Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
>Date：2016-06-27 01:13:17The claim is that the sources need not be accurate if ones only goal is to<br>
calculate scalp distribution with infinity reference.<br>
<br>
On Sunday, June 26, 2016, Spencer, Kevin M. <<a href="mailto:kevin_spencer@hms.harvard.edu" target="_blank">kevin_spencer@hms.harvard.edu</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi everybody,<br>
><br>
><br>
> It seems to me that the validity of REST rests upon the validity of<br>
> the source localization method (with everything that entails, including<br>
> electrode montage, head model, etc.). To me at least, EEG source<br>
> localization still seems to be a black art, not a science (except for<br>
> early sensory-evoked activity). If any and all EEG activity could be<br>
> localized with high accuracy, then REST would be valid, but why would you<br>
> need it if you could localize sources so well? If I'm missing something,<br>
> please let me know.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Kevin<br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> *From:* <a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');> <<br>
> <a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');>> on behalf<br>
> of Jonathan Folstein <<a href="mailto:jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">jonathan.r.folstein@gmail.com</a>');>><br>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 25, 2016 10:15 PM<br>
> *To:* <a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>');> Listserv<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the EEG<br>
> Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
><br>
><br>
> Hi all, I’m letting Micah’s email percolate, but just a quick rejoinder to<br>
> Steve’s (second to) last point, which I agree with.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I want to study components that are commonly studied with average<br>
> reference (N250 and N170), but my cap is too low density to use average<br>
> reference. Therefore, I cannot follow Steve’s advice. If I use average<br>
> reference, my scalp distributions will still differ from previous studies<br>
> using average reference/high density because av ref is montage dependent<br>
> (again, cf. Liu, Quanying, et al. "Estimating a neutral reference for<br>
> electroencephalographic recordings: the importance of using a high-density<br>
> montage and a realistic head model." Journal of neural engineering 12.5<br>
> (2015): 056012., although I think this is commonly agreed, see also Nunez,<br>
> Paul L. "REST: a good idea but not the gold standard." Clinical<br>
> neurophysiology: official journal of the International Federation of<br>
> Clinical Neurophysiology 121.12 (2010): 2177. for a measured and<br>
> caveat-laden but still decidedly positive endorsement from Nunez).<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> But if I use average mastoids, I get dinged on reviews because I am<br>
> departing from the usual reference (I of course make the point that the<br>
> posterior N1 was studied using averaged mastoids, but this only goes so far<br>
> because different stimuli, paradigms, etc.).<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> That is why I am interested in REST: it should give scalp distributions<br>
> similar to average reference/high density even when using a low density<br>
> cap. In a world where average reference is very widely used, I think this<br>
> type of bridge between EEG traditions could be very useful to many<br>
> researchers (even ones that don’t play by the rules!).<br>
><br>
><br>
> cheers<br>
><br>
><br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 9:14 PM, Mark McCourt <<a href="mailto:mark.mccourt@ndsu.edu" target="_blank">mark.mccourt@ndsu.edu</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:mark.mccourt@ndsu.edu" target="_blank">mark.mccourt@ndsu.edu</a>');>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I may not appreciate various subtleties, but if the effect of referencing<br>
>> is multiplicative/divisive then this will not alter signal/noise ratio,<br>
>> will it? If the effect of referencing is additive/subtractive then I can<br>
>> imagine that it might. If the latter then why wouldn't researchers<br>
>> routinely search for a reference (i.e., some combination of electrodes,<br>
>> possibly all) which yields the highest S/N ratio over the electrodes of<br>
>> greatest interest?<br>
>><br>
>> Mark<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPad<br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 25, 2016, at 5:41 PM, Murray Micah <<a href="mailto:Micah.Murray@chuv.ch" target="_blank">Micah.Murray@chuv.ch</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:Micah.Murray@chuv.ch" target="_blank">Micah.Murray@chuv.ch</a>');>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> I am new to this distribution list and thus am not 100% sure what is the<br>
>> standard “protocol”. So, please forgive any diplomatic mis-steps. I have<br>
>> been reading this thread over the past couple of days subsequent to Prof.<br>
>> Tian’s circulating of the frontiers topic in the subject line above.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Steve’s figure makes an important point that has been emphasized for<br>
>> several decades by individuals like Dietrich Lehmann and many others (e.g.<br>
>> Lehmann’s seminal 1987 chapter entitled, “Principles of Spatial Analysis”);<br>
>> the topography of the electric field at the scalp is reference-independent.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> However, this by no means should encourage people to think that the<br>
>> reference is arbitrary or that one should use a given reference by<br>
>> convention with similar works in the field. The choice of the reference<br>
>> indeed has dramatic effects on the analysis of voltage waveforms. This<br>
>> again has been demonstrated countless times over the decades (see Figure 1<br>
>> from Murray et al. 2008 Brain Topography or Figure 1 from Tzovara et al<br>
>> 2012 Developmental Neuropsychology for fairly recent examples; the latter<br>
>> of which is reproduced here below). The variance at a given location<br>
>> changes with a change of reference. In my opinion, this important fact<br>
>> often is overlooked and contributes to the confusion that is apparent in<br>
>> the postings we have read over the past few days. Given that it is the case<br>
>> that analyses with different references will yield different results, I<br>
>> find it difficult to see how one can responsibly advise researchers to<br>
>> analyze their data with a variety of different references to gain any<br>
>> clarity on the neurobiological truth of whether (i.e. when and where on the<br>
>> scalp and hopefully by what underlying process) an experimental<br>
>> manipulation yielded effects.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I am fairly confident that precisely this issue led individuals like<br>
>> Dietrich Lehmann and Herbert G. Vaughan Jr. (and many others, but these are<br>
>> individuals with whom I have first-hand accounts) to advocate analysis of<br>
>> reference-independent measures of the electric field at the scalp. In the<br>
>> case of Lehmann, he advocated analysis of Global Field Power (GFP) and<br>
>> Global Map Dissimilarity (a.k.a. Dissimilarity or DISS) (e.g. Lehmann and<br>
>> Skrandies, 1980 Electroenceph Clin Neurophysiol. 48:609–21). In the case of<br>
>> Vaughan Jr., he advocated analysis of Laplacian waveforms (e.g. Vaughan<br>
>> 1982 Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences).<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> For my own part, I hope these points ultimately reduce some of the<br>
>> confusion that seems to persist in our field.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> With my very best regards,<br>
>><br>
>> Micah<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <image003.png><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *Micah M. Murray, Ph.D.*<br>
>><br>
>> Director, EEG Brain Mapping Core CHUV<br>
>><br>
>> Center for Biomedical Imaging<br>
>><br>
>> &<br>
>><br>
>> Director, The Laboratory for Investigative Neurophysiology (The LINE)<br>
>><br>
>> Department of Radiology<br>
>><br>
>> Department of Clinical Neurosciences<br>
>><br>
>> Centre Hospitalier Universitaire Vaudois and University of Lausanne,<br>
>> Switzerland<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.unil.ch/line" target="_blank">www.unil.ch/line</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *CHUV*<br>
>><br>
>> *centre hospitalier universitaire vaudois*<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *De :* <a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');> [<br>
>> mailto:<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');>] *De la<br>
>> part de* Steven J Luck<br>
>> *Envoyé :* samedi 25 juin 2016 19:16<br>
>> *À :* <a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>');> Listserv<br>
>> *Objet :* Re: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the EEG<br>
>> Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Y’all might want to take a look at the attached figure (Figure 2 from Ch<br>
>> 5 in the 2nd edition of An Introduction to the Event-Related Potential<br>
>> Technique). It makes a point that in some ways should be completely<br>
>> obvious but did not occur to me until I had been doing ERP research for<br>
>> about 25 years: Changing the reference simply adds a constant to each<br>
>> electrode site. It basically shifts the entire scalp distribution up or<br>
>> down, but it doesn’t change the relative amplitudes at the different<br>
>> electrodes.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I hope this makes it clear that the reference is largely arbitrary.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Steve<br>
>><br>
>> <image001.jpg><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Jun 25, 2016, at 1:06 AM, <a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">
dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a>');> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Compare the spectra maps of A1, and A1+A2 in the attached paper, you can<br>
>> see the effect of reference. The real problem is that you do not know<br>
>> where the activities are weak, you'd choose a zero/neutral one in general<br>
>> by Using REST.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:dyao@uestc.edu.cn" target="_blank">dyao@uestc.edu.cn</a>');><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *发件人：* ty <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:tiany20032003@163.com" target="_blank">tiany20032003@163.com</a>');><br>
>><br>
>> *发送时间：* 2016-06-25 15:46<br>
>><br>
>> *收件人：* Smulders F (PSYCHOLOGY)<br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl" target="_blank">f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl</a>');><br>
>><br>
>> *抄送：* 'Jesse Bengson'<br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:jjbengson@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">jjbengson@ucdavis.edu</a>');>; 'Brad Wyble'<br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:bwyble@gmail.com" target="_blank">bwyble@gmail.com</a>');>; '<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> Listserv' <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>');><br>
>><br>
>> *主**题：* Re:RE: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the<br>
>> EEG Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
>><br>
>> you maybe right if your assumption about the activities at A2 is small. However, sometime strong activities at both A1 and A2 are also possible, It is not easy to tell exactly. if someday later someone find that the true is strong activities at both ears,
this could be misleading. I suggest to use REST to obtain more information.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> BEST<br>
>><br>
>> Yin<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> At 2016-06-23 15:47:54, "Smulders F (PSYCHOLOGY)" <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl" target="_blank">f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl" target="_blank">f.smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl</a>');>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> some thoughts that I find comforting are:<br>
>><br>
>> a) If I record with A1 (mastoid bone behind left ear) as reference,<br>
>> and include A2 as ‘active’ electrode, then the EEG amplitude at A2 is low<br>
>> in comparison to the amplitude at the other electrodes. It suggests that<br>
>> ‘not much is going on’ at A2 vs. A1. Of course, this disregards any<br>
>> activity that is common to A1 and A2, but I see no good reason to expect<br>
>> that this common activity is large.<br>
>><br>
>> b) For many ERP applications, we study merely lateralized activity,<br>
>> i.e. subtractions of voltage at homologous electrodes of left and right<br>
>> hemisphere, as in C3 – C4 for LRP. The reference, that is common to both,<br>
>> is then automatically subtracted, so I still sleep well.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Looking forward to the special issue, though.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Kind regards,<br>
>><br>
>> Fren<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
>><br>
>> Fren T.Y. Smulders, PhD.<br>
>><br>
>> Dept. of Cognitive Neuroscience<br>
>><br>
>> Faculty of Psychology and Neuroscience<br>
>><br>
>> Maastricht University<br>
>><br>
>> Postal address: PO Box 616, 6200MD, Maastricht, The Netherlands<br>
>><br>
>> Visiting address: Oxfordlaan 55, room 1.012, 6229EV<br>
>><br>
>> E: <a href="mailto:F.Smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl" target="_blank">F.Smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:F.Smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl" target="_blank">F.Smulders@maastrichtuniversity.nl</a>');><br>
>><br>
>> T: <a href="tel:%2B31%20%280%2943%203881909" value="+31433881909" target="_blank">
+31 (0)43 3881909</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');> [mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab-request@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab-request@ucdavis.edu</a>');>] *On Behalf<br>
>> Of *Jesse Bengson<br>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 23, 2016 07:37<br>
>> *To:* Brad Wyble<br>
>> *Cc:* ty; <a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:erplab@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">erplab@ucdavis.edu</a>');> Listserv<br>
>> *Subject:* Re: [erplab] Through a Glass, Darkly: the Influence of the<br>
>> EEG Reference on Inference about Brain Function and Disorders<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Other than the obvious point that it is uncomfortable and distracting for<br>
>> the participants, it is a great reference!<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 8:29 PM, Brad Wyble <<a href="mailto:bwyble@gmail.com" target="_blank">bwyble@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:bwyble@gmail.com" target="_blank">bwyble@gmail.com</a>');>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> This seems like a good opportunity to ask why the tip of the nose is<br>
>> rarely used these days. From a physiological standpoint, it seems hard to<br>
>> imagine a better location. It is insulated from nearby muscle activity by<br>
>> a thick block of cartilage (like the ears) and has the additional advantage<br>
>> of being laterally centered. I use it for all of my recordings and it seems<br>
>> an ideal choice for standard ERP work. Is there an argument against the<br>
>> dear old nosetip that I'm unaware of?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Best<br>
>><br>
>> -Brad<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 2:25 PM, ty <<a href="mailto:tiany20032003@163.com" target="_blank">tiany20032003@163.com</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:tiany20032003@163.com" target="_blank">tiany20032003@163.com</a>');>> wrote:<br>
>> Dear all，<br>
>><br>
>> Since its discovery, the human electroencephalogram (EEG) has proven<br>
>> itself an indispensable tool for brain research. Despite this success<br>
>> story, there is a fundamental technical issue that has yet to be resolved:<br>
>> the selection of the correct EEG reference. Ideally one would like to<br>
>> measure neural activity restricted to certain brain regions. Since EEG<br>
>> amplifiers measure potential difference between the activities recorded by<br>
>> two electrodes, in addition to the active electrode, one must employ a<br>
>> reference electrode which should ideally be at zero. In theory, this might<br>
>> be achieved by placing the reference at a point infinitely far away. Yet<br>
>> the “infinite reference”, in practice, is an antenna for ambient noise<br>
>> which would preempt brain measurements—for example cephalic references that<br>
>> minimize unwanted signal pickup.<br>
>><br>
>> Examples of such references are the unilateral-mastoid, ear, linked<br>
>> mastoids or ears, vertex, the tip of the nose, neck ring, etc.<br>
>> Unfortunately all such references are doomed to fail since there is no<br>
>> point on the scalp or body surface where the potential is actually zero or<br>
>> a constant. This has serious consequences since the non-neutral reference<br>
>> may itself reflect physiological dynamic processes that will be inevitably<br>
>> embedded into all EEG recordings. Without solving the reference issue we<br>
>> are looking at brain activity, as it were, “through a glass, darkly”.<br>
>><br>
>> Recent attempts to make this “glass” more transparent have been based on<br>
>> mathematically constructing a reference based on physical principles and<br>
>> subtracting it from all EEG recordings. The best known example is the<br>
>> average reference (AVE). Originally proposed with an analog implementation,<br>
>> it was heuristically espoused by Lehman (1971) and later theoretically<br>
>> justified since the average of a dipole potential over a spherical surface<br>
>> is zero. Consequently, the AVE might be a good choice when a dense and<br>
>> whole brain coverage of an EEG montage is available, which explains why it<br>
>> is widely accepted.<br>
>><br>
>> Nevertheless, AVE has poor performance with a lower number of electrodes.<br>
>> An alternative is the Reference Electrode Standardization Technique (REST)<br>
>> which used a re-referencing method to reconstruct the desired zero or<br>
>> neutral reference, based on the fact that the underlying neural sources are<br>
>> the same no matter what a reference is actually adopted.<br>
>><br>
>> This Research Topic will encourage the objective comparison of the effect<br>
>> that various EEG references may have on inference about brain function and<br>
>> disorders—with respect to both physical and computational issues. The<br>
>> crucial point is to determine the reference that best identifies neural<br>
>> activity and therefore be the basis of improved estimates of various linear<br>
>> and non-linear EEG features. These include spectra, amplitude, latency,<br>
>> coherence/correlation, network, symmetry/asymmetry, fractal dimension,<br>
>> complexity, covariance and related statistical tests. If a single reference<br>
>> can be finally recognized universally as the optimal one for general use,<br>
>> we will have indeed rendered the “glass less opaque” and thus “know in<br>
>> part” more about brain function. To contribute to this end, we welcome our<br>
>> colleagues to submit paper with theoretical work, simulation studies,<br>
>> practical experimental data analysis as well as critical reviews.<br>
>><br>
>> *Important Note:* All submissions/contributions to this Research Topic<br>
>> must be in line with the scope of the journal and section they<br>
>> are submitted to. While authors are encouraged to draw from other<br>
>> disciplines to enrich their papers where relevant, they must ensure papers<br>
>> fall within the section, as expressed in its Scope.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *Keywords*: EEG, reference, ERPs<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Detailed information can be found at: *<a href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/researchtopic/4932/" target="_blank">http://journal.frontiersin.org/researchtopic/4932/</a><br>
>> <<a href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/researchtopic/4932/" target="_blank">http://journal.frontiersin.org/researchtopic/4932/</a>>*<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> With best wishes,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ---------------<br>
>><br>
>> Yin Tian, PhD<br>
>><br>
>> Associate Professor<br>
>><br>
>> Biomedical engineering department<br>
>><br>
>> *ChongQing University of Posts and Telecommunications, China, 400065*<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> Brad Wyble<br>
>> Assistant Professor -> Associate (July 1)<br>
>> Psychology Department<br>
>> Penn State University<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://wyblelab.com" target="_blank">http://wyblelab.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <2005 comparative study of different references for EEG spectral<br>
>> mapping.pdf><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> Steven J. Luck, Ph.D.<br>
>> Director, Center for Mind & Brain<br>
>> Professor, Department of Psychology<br>
>> University of California, Davis<br>
>> Room 109<br>
>> 267 Cousteau Place<br>
>> Davis, CA 95618<br>
>> <a href="tel:%28530%29%20297-4424" value="+15302974424" target="_blank">(530) 297-4424</a><br>
>> E-Mail: <a href="mailto:sjluck@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">sjluck@ucdavis.edu</a><br>
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:sjluck@ucdavis.edu" target="_blank">sjluck@ucdavis.edu</a>');><br>
>> Web: <a href="http://mindbrain.ucdavis.edu/people/sjluck" target="_blank">http://mindbrain.ucdavis.edu/people/sjluck</a><br>
>> Calendar:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=stevenjluck%40gmail.com&ctz=America/Los_Angeles" target="_blank">
http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=stevenjluck%40gmail.com&ctz=America/Los_Angeles</a><br>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jonathan Folstein<br>
> Assistant Professor<br>
> Department of Psychology<br>
> Florida State University<br>
> 1107 W. Call St.<br>
> Tallahassee, FL 32306-4301<br>
> office: <a href="tel:850-645-0654" value="+18506450654" target="_blank">850-645-0654</a><br>
> fax: <a href="tel:850-644-7739" value="+18506447739" target="_blank">850-644-7739</a><br>
> <a href="mailto:folstein@psy.fsu.edu" target="_blank">folstein@psy.fsu.edu</a><br>
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','<a href="mailto:folstein@psy.fsu.edu" target="_blank">folstein@psy.fsu.edu</a>');><br>
><br>
<br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Jonathan Folstein<br>
Assistant Professor<br>
Department of Psychology<br>
Florida State University<br>
1107 W. Call St.<br>
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4301<br>
office: <a href="tel:850-645-0654" value="+18506450654" target="_blank">850-645-0654</a><br>
fax: <a href="tel:850-644-7739" value="+18506447739" target="_blank">850-644-7739</a><br>
<a href="mailto:folstein@psy.fsu.edu" target="_blank">folstein@psy.fsu.edu</a></font></span></blockquote>
<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Makoto Miyakoshi<br>
Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>
Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></span>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Makoto Miyakoshi<br>Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego<br></div></div>
</div>