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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I would agree as well and am pleased to see this paper and scott’s as well. This accumulation of knowledge and application of these techniques is critical. For those interested we have presented these approaches in two papers and an upcoming book chapter as well:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><a href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00045/full">http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00045/full</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><a href="http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2015.00194/full">http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2015.00194/full</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Rob<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><span style='mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu [mailto:eeglablist-bounces@sccn.ucsd.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Makoto Miyakoshi<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 7, 2016 8:49 PM<br><b>To:</b> Frederik Van de Steen <Frederik.VandeSteen@ugent.be><br><b>Cc:</b> eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Eeglablist] paper published<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Frederik,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It's such an honor to receive a kind explanation from the first author of the critical paper. Thank you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I read your comment but did not see the answer. I read discussion section of your paper and found the following description.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>> However, since the mixing of sources is not identical for the different channels, the inclusion of past values of another (driver) channel can improve the prediction of another (target) channel’s current state.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yeah, this makes sense... I confused sources with channels. After applying MVAR on channel signals, of course the result is across-channel connectivity... who wants to know it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>However, this means that preprocessing methods to obtain source EEG activity is critical. The author of SIFT, Tim Mullen, participated to write this paper, which claims that it does better job than AMICA.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cin/2016/9754813/">https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cin/2016/9754813/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My point is that if the selection of this kind of preprocessing methods and algorithms can determine the basic quality of the connectivity ananlysis, then the EEG connectivity analysis itself if very much dependent on its source-decomposing preprocessing. I kind of knew it, but your publication, together with Clemens's, proved it. This may promote the use of ICA actually.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Anyway, thank you very much Frederik. I understood it now.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Makoto<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:22 AM, Frederik Van de Steen <<a href="mailto:Frederik.VandeSteen@ugent.be" target="_blank">Frederik.VandeSteen@ugent.be</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Dear Makoto,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>We investigated this issue in our recent paper: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Van de Steen, F., Faes, L., Karahan, E., Songsiri, J., Valdes-Sosa, P. A., & Marinazzo, D. (2016). Critical comments on EEG sensor space dynamical connectivity analysis. <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Brain Topography</span></em>, 1-12.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>This work was conducted independently from and simultaneously as </span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFFEE'>Brunner</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> et al (2016). Both papers show how spurious connectivity on sensor space analysis can, in many cases, occur (not always though). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I'll try my very best to make it intuitively:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>first of all, you should be aware that non negative (d)DTF, (r)PDC, time domain granger causality etc. all imply at least one non-negative off diagonal coefficient of the coefficient matrix (<b>B</b>) of the MVAR model.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>To clarify: time series are modelled with a multivariate autoregressive model (MVAR) in which current values of time series are explained by a linear combination of past values of that time series itself and past values of other time series: X(t)= <b>B</b>1*X(t-1) + <b>B</b>2*X(t-2) + etc+ error where X(t) is a column vector contain the current values of all time series (X(t) = [X1(t) X2(t) ...]T). Diagonal elements of <b>B</b> relate past values (t-1, t-2 etc) of a time series to the current value (t) of the time series itself (e.g X1(t-1) to X1(t) )). Off diagonal elements relate past values of another time series to the current value (e.g X2(t-1) to X1(t)))<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>secondly, two independent time series ≠ two independent time series. what i mean is that there are different ways in which time series can be independent of one another. e.g two white noise processes vs. two independent autoregressive time series. In the former case the time series cannot be modelled with past values of another time series nor can it be modelled with past values of that time series itself (all elements in <b>B</b> are zero). In the latter case, the situation is different. There you cannot model one time series with past values of the other but you can model it with past values of the time series itself (i.e. only non zero elements on diagonal of <b>B</b>). Now when you mix up (linear superposition) these time series (by volume conduction), the past contains information of both original time series. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><a name="m_5072483075482788299_ms-rterangepaste-s"></a><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>since the mixing of time series is not identical (i.e. each EEG channel is a unique linear combination of sources), the inclusion of past values of another mixed time series can improve the prediction of the other mixed time series. This translates, in terms of the MVAR model, in a (some) non-negative off diagonal elements in <b>B</b> and thus also non negative DTF, PDC, etc. When mixing up white noise, no spurious connectivity will occur because the past wasn't informative in the first place. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>You need to be aware that even though volume conduction implies instantaneously mixing of time series, the continuation of time does not unmix the past...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>So basically these measures are not insensitive to volume conduction as claimed by some. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Hope it is a bit clear. Please do not hesitate to ask more questions<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Frederik <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><hr size=6 width="98%" align=center></span></div><div id="m_5072483075482788299divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Van:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> Makoto Miyakoshi <<a href="mailto:mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu" target="_blank">mmiyakoshi@ucsd.edu</a>><br><b>Verzonden:</b> woensdag 7 december 2016 03:46<br><b>Aan:</b> Scott Makeig<br><b>CC:</b> <a href="mailto:eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><br><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Eeglablist] paper published</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>Dear Scott and list, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>During the EEGLAB Workshop 2016, I asked this question to Tim Mullen during his lecture, without knowing this ongoing debate. Intuitively, it does not make sense to me why just linear mixing affects connectivity calculation, if dDTF or rPDC can suppress the spurious connections... Tim mentioned that there is good reason for this, but did not explain it during the lecture due to limited time. Can anyone give me an intuitive explanation why it is bad?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>Makoto<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Scott Makeig <<a href="mailto:smakeig@ucsd.edu" target="_blank">smakeig@ucsd.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>Some of us noticed a paper published recently that claimed that effective connectivity measures between scalp EEG channels suffer no ill effects of volume conduction -- and immediately questioned its conclusions! Clement Brunner of Graz mounted an effort to publish a rebuttal in the same journal, which has now appeared: <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFFEE'>C. Brunner, M. Billinger, M. Seeber, T.R. Mullen, S Makeig, Volume conduction influences scalp-based connectivity estimates<a href="https://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott/pdf/brunner16.pdf" target="_blank"><span style='text-decoration:none'> </span></a>(a rebuttal). <em><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience</span></em>, </span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black;background:#FFFFEE'>doi:10.3389/fncom.2016.00121, 22 November 2016.</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>We have learned that another group is publishing a separate rebuttal ...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#888888'>Scott Makeig<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=m5072483075482788299hoenzb><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#888888'>-- </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#888888'>Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0961, <a href="http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott" target="_blank">http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Eeglablist page: <a href="http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html" target="_blank">http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html</a><br>To unsubscribe, send an empty email to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><br>For digest mode, send an email with the subject "set digest mime" to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu" target="_blank">eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121'>Makoto Miyakoshi<br>Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>Eeglablist page: <a href="http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html" target="_blank">http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html</a><br>To unsubscribe, send an empty email to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu">eeglablist-unsubscribe@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><br>For digest mode, send an email with the subject "set digest mime" to <a href="mailto:eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu">eeglablist-request@sccn.ucsd.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Makoto Miyakoshi<br>Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience<br>Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>