[Eeglablist] Dear list, about line noise.

Makoto Miyakoshi mmiyakoshi at ucsd.edu
Fri Apr 16 19:30:30 PDT 2021 

Dear Ramtin,

> I apologise if my questions are typically non-sensible

The type of the questions I enjoy answering is something excited,
enthusiastic, and confused!

Makoto


On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 3:58 PM Ramtin Mehraram via eeglablist <
eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Dear Makoto,
>
> I apologise if my questions are typically non-sensible, and appreciate
> your valuable help.
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Ramtin
>
>
> Il 16 apr 2021 17:46, Makoto Miyakoshi via eeglablist <
> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> ha scritto:
> Dear Ramtin,
>
> > Does my reasoning sound sensible? Please let me know if any of my
> thoughts is inaccurate.
>
> As is typical with you, the question did not make sense to me
> unfortunately.
> But I could see you have a question about the difference between ZapLine
> and CleanLine.
>
> For ZapLine, if a time-series of line noise artifact is added via a spatial
> filter of a *FIXED* scalp topography (i.e. the combination of the whole
> electrodes oscillate along with the time series), it can be beautifully
> subtracted out. This FIXEDNESS is the meaning of 'stationary'.
>
> If a source of line noise run around across the regions of scalp, ZapLine
> cannot model it with a fixed scalp topography. In this case, CleanLine can
> still take care of it. CleanLine deals with every single electrode one by
> one (which is called univariate approach; ZapLine is multivariate) without
> caring how the electrodes are correlated.
>
> Let me know if this explanation helps, and whether it answered your
> question directly or indirectly.
>
> Makoto
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:13 AM Ramtin Mehraram <
> ramtin.mehraram at kuleuven.be> wrote:
>
> > Dear Makoto,
> >
> > I have a bit of confusion on how the two approaches deal with stationary
> > noise.
> >
> > Being based on spatial filtering the ZapLine approach can only deal with
> > the stationary part of the noise.
> >
> > The CleanLine approach is non-stationary as it is based on a sliding
> > windows, hence there is no prior-assumption about stationarity. However,
> > any residual activity here would still be non-stationary.
> >
> > If my understanding is correct, if one or the other approach is applied
> > before, some non-stationary residual would still remain, although reduced
> > by the application of CleanLine.
> >
> > Based on this, the method which is applied as second will have to deal
> > with a reduced amount of stationary noise, and the final output should
> not
> > depend much on in which order the methods are applied.
> >
> > Does my reasoning sound sensible? Please let me know if any of my
> thoughts
> > is inaccurate.
> >
> > Many thanks again for your help.
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Ramtin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eeglablist <eeglablist-bounces at sccn.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Makoto
> > Miyakoshi via eeglablist
> > Sent: giovedì 15 aprile 2021 00:22
> > To: eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] Dear list, about line noise.
> >
> > Dear Ramtin,
> >
> > > Although you specifically suggest the use of CleanLine after ZapLine,
> > > I
> > was wondering whether the opposite makes any difference.
> >
> > Interesting question.
> > The residual line noise after CleanLine is probably non-stationary
> > (because CleanLine uses a sliding window approach). Because ZapLine makes
> > an assumption of stationarity, I thought ZapLine may not be able to deal
> > with it very well. But strictly speaking, ZapLine's performance there of
> > course depends on the stationarity of the residual line noise.
> >
> > If you are interested, you may want to run the test. Both methods are
> > published, so it is just a matter of time.
> > And if you find my prediction is wrong, please do let me know! I'm very
> > curious.
> >
> > Thank you for your interest Ramtin.
> >
> > Makoto
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:04 AM Ramtin Mehraram <
> > ramtin.mehraram at kuleuven.be>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Makoto,
> > >
> > > I see that you recommend in that paper a combined usage of ZapLine and
> > > CleanLine for optimal results. Although you specifically suggest the
> > > use of CleanLine after ZapLine, I was wondering whether the opposite
> > > makes any difference.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance for your help.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Ramtin
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: eeglablist <eeglablist-bounces at sccn.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of
> > > Makoto Miyakoshi via eeglablist
> > > Sent: martedì 16 marzo 2021 17:47
> > > To: EEGLAB List <eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] Dear list, about line noise.
> > >
> > > ⚠ External sender. Take care when opening links or attachments. Do not
> > > provide your login details.
> > >
> > > Dear Hsin-An and Meha,
> > >
> > > Here is the recently published comparison between CleanLine
> > > (cleanLineNoise) and ZapLine.
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook
> > > .com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2F*2Fpubmed.n
> > > cbi.nlm.nih.gov*2F33584237*2F__*3B!!Mih3wA!SNPuomg5uPwruRY1ELie8uo9D7P
> > > fRRhCS9Sdb3sznjFPoh_hJ_-ID3V4-enETszcFZ_OiQ*24&data=04*7C01*7CR.Me
> > > hraram2*40newcastle.ac.uk*7C6f0001c617114b813b9808d8e89c1437*7C9c5012c
> > > 9b61644c2a91766814fbe3e87*7C1*7C0*7C637515104334719474*7CUnknown*7CTWF
> > > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6M
> > > n0*3D*7C1000&sdata=k1vBHH73jDERLO*2FHhc7LVcGBx2P9N7A1BP*2BwCGBHgZU
> > > *3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!Mih3wA!UK4M
> > > zzIQgUArd5inHE3ocME5_O0L_DLA7L0j7wH6B6XfllYAb3xzne9F7yPdxefpmg$
> > >
> > > I think CleanLine is good for general purposes if you need to retain
> > > the original signal in the line noise frequency range. The assumption
> > > here is that line noise has much slower time constant to modulate
> > amplitude (i.e.
> > > line-noise signal nvelope) than the genuine EEG signal. The same goal
> > > can be achieved by ZapLine if the spatial filter of the line noise is
> > > stationary, but this assumption is less likely.
> > >
> > > Makoto
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 8:40 AM Meha Fatima via eeglablist <
> > > eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Chang,
> > > >
> > > > I have found Cleanline very useful for 60 Hz line noise removal, so
> > > > you can try it :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 at 23:54, <chang.ha at msa.hinet.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear list,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which is the most effective plugin to remove line noise (i.e.,
> 60Hz)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Filter the data (Basic FIR filter, new default) - Notch filter the
> > > > > data instead of pass band?
> > > > >
> > > > > Cleanline?
> > > > >
> > > > > PREP pipeline?
> > > > >
> > > > > Or any other plugin?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hsin-An Chang  M.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tri-Service General Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > *  Dr. Meha Fatima BSMT, Ph.D.*
> > > >                                          Assistant Professor
> > > >                                          Dow Institute of Medical
> > > > Technology
> > > >                                          Dow University of Health
> > > Sciences
> > > >                                           *mehafatima1 at gmail.com
> > > > <mehafatima1 at gmail.com>.*
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