[Eeglablist] Is average reference not recommended on 10-20 system?

[Kyle Lepage]

Thank you for the video.  In the video, rCAR is not compared to the other
references.  In the provided link it is.
rCAR has the advantage over CAR that a spatially localized event will not
introduce a small, negatively correlated signal on all of the
other channels in the CAR adjusted data.  This effect becomes smaller with
larger numbers of electrodes, until the spatially local signal begins to
affect more than one electrode with the increasing electrode density.  At
that point, increasing electrode density will not further reduce the
negative correlation.

All the best,
  Kyle

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 10:02 PM Arnaud Delorme <adelorme at ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Dear Kyle,
>
> This is a video that compares the different references.
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioIETUX4G4k__;!!Mih3wA!ATAO9wJVcnvwyp1FqsiCTGBOkY2WWngk1bFGpbMRlI7Rk7oOYclWBR1240RzgrRZbvJnbLFIjTZ9KVrQcOjmuMI3fg$ 
>
> Arno
>
> > On Jul 24, 2023, at 4:10 AM, Kyle Lepage via eeglablist <
> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, you might try:
> >
> > @article{lepage2014statistically,
> >  title={A statistically robust EEG re-referencing procedure to
> > mitigate reference effect},
> >  author={Lepage, Kyle Q and Kramer, Mark A and Chu, Catherine J},
> >  journal={Journal of neuroscience methods},
> >  volume={235},
> >  pages={101--116},
> >  year={2014},
> >  publisher={Elsevier}
> > }
> >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/64643-apply-rcar/?s_tid=LandingPageTabfx__;!!Mih3wA!DnegK98ehdTXFqLwanApFI6uX5CRADC5cc0HYGAMKvej1yK8Dq8xPj0PAXwHyWmXP_RdnbAgdJjXQmHz3Yx67WF9Pw$
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >  Kyle
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 12:09 PM Cedric Cannard via eeglablist <
> > eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Makoto,
> >>
> >> This is basically what I was referring to yes. Doesn't this paragraph
> you
> >> sent support this recommendation?
> >>
> >> "As the number of electrodes increases the error in the approximation is
> >> expected to decrease. [...] with large numbers of electrodes (say
> >> 128 or more), we have found that the average reference often performs
> >> reasonably well as an estimate of reference-independent potentials in
> >> simulation studies (Srinivasan et al. 1998)."
> >>
> >> However, I should have provided a more nuanced response. Both average
> and
> >> REST/ininfity references are both considered superior to all other known
> >> references, especially with 64+ channels. However, I now tend to
> recommend
> >> and use REST because, while it faces the same limitations caused by low
> >> electrode coverage and density (i.e., spherical harmonics degree < 7
> with
> >> less than 128 channels; Srinivasan et al. 1998), the error can be
> reduced
> >> as the head model improves. See here for great discussion on this:
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2967671/__;!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMhzKOjCew$
> >>
> >> "idealized simulations (Marzetti et al, 2007; Qin et al, 2010) where the
> >> head model used to estimate G is very similar to model used to estimate
> >> errors, REST outperforms AVE. From this argument we see that the choice
> >> between AVE and REST largely boils down to questions of genuine head
> model
> >> accuracy [...]. The most popular head model consists of 3 or 4
> concentric
> >> spherical shells representing, brain, CSF, skull, and scalp tissue (Rush
> >> and Driscoll, 1969; Nunez, 1981; Nunez and Srinivasan, 2006). The
> spherical
> >> symmetry allows for relatively simple analytic solutions to the forward
> >> problem. On the other hand [...], despite these limitations, simple head
> >> models can be extremely useful, typically by proving that many EEG
> analysis
> >> methods proposed over the past 50 years or so will NOT work. For
> example,
> >> the so-called quiet reference myth is easily discredited with simple
> models
> >> (Rush and Driscoll, 1969; Nunez, 1981; Nunez and Westdorp, 1994; Nunez
> and
> >> Srinivasan, 2006). Or, distortion by reference and volume conduction is
> >> shown to produce very large errors in scalp coherence estimates (Nunez
> et
> >> al, 1997, 1999; Srinivasan et al, 1996, 1998; Marzetti et al, 2007).
> >> Moderate head model inaccuracy does not change the central conclusions
> of
> >> these studies. Simulations using simple head models then provide a
> critical
> >> “filter” through which mathematical methods must first pass to be
> >> considered further by serious scientists. We must be continually
> reminded
> >> that fancy mathematics can never trump physical principles. The Qin et
> al
> >> (2010) study has passed this important first test by showing that REST
> >> works with simple head models and certain assumed source distributions,
> but
> >> its accuracy with read heads and other source distributions is unknown.
> For
> >> this reason, I suggest that REST and AVE be adopted as reference
> partners,
> >> at least until better information becomes available."
> >>
> >> In conclusion, they are similar, but REST seems to be the most promising
> >> in the long term (along with Surface Laplacian methods), as the head
> models
> >> improve. It already performs slightly better than AVE (e.g.,
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1388245710004153__;!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMhgoEdbtw$
> >> and
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2017.00205/full?ref=https:**Agithubhelp.com__;Ly8!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMg1UjXsBA$
> >> ), and will keep improving over the years. That's why I tend to use it
> and
> >> recommend it now.
> >>
> >> Additionally, REST (and especially the new regularized REST) may present
> >> new advantages (e.g., the effective rank deficiency issue although this
> is
> >> pretty much solved now with the recent solution, data recorded with
> >> monopolar reference, etc.). See:
> >>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10548-019-00706-y__;!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMjinh8EZg$
> >>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-2552/aaa13f__;!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMhHPAIx-Q$
> >>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388245723005941__;!!Mih3wA!GHxYARW27MxFaJ2eDEyohyAmJb8T3foIM3Ee70lzdOc35_OV2YZVDGWwy4ZnfyPRe7E06ijETkbzKxADMMiRFwJb5w$
> >>
> >> Note that the EEG reference conversation will go to infinity ;)
> >>
> >> Cedric
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> >>
> >> ------- Original Message -------
> >> On Thursday, June 15th, 2023 at 2:25 PM, Makoto Miyakoshi via
> eeglablist <
> >> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Dear Jinwon and Cedric,
> >>>
> >>> Let's confirm the problem first. 'Electric Fields of the Brain' by
> Nunez
> >>> and Srinivasan (2006) (hereafter EFB) p.295 says:
> >>>
> >>> ...The surface integral of the potential over a volume conductor
> >> containing
> >>> dipole sources must be zero as a consequence of current conservation
> >>> (Bertrand et al. 1985). In this case, the surface integral can be
> >> estimated
> >>> by the second term on the right-hand side of (7.10); that is, by
> >> averaging
> >>> the measured potentials and changing the sign of this average. (...)
> >> Since
> >>> we cannot measure the potentials on a closed surface surrounding the
> >> brain,
> >>> the first term on the right-hand side of (7.10) will not generally
> >> vanish.
> >>> The distribution of potential on the underside of the head (within the
> >> neck
> >>> region) cannot be measured. Furthermore, the average potential for any
> >>> group of electrode positions, given by the second term on the
> right-hand
> >>> side of (7.10), can only approximate the surface integral over the
> volume
> >>> conductor. For example, this is expected to be a very poor
> approximation
> >> if
> >>> applied with the standard 10/20 electrode system. As the number of
> >>> electrodes increases the error in the approximation is expected to
> >>> decrease. Thus, like any other choice of reference, the average
> reference
> >>> provides biased estimates of reference-independent potentials.
> >>> Nevertheless, when used in studies with large numbers of electrodes
> (say
> >>> 128 or more), we have found that the average reference often performs
> >>> reasonably well as an estimate of reference-independent potentials in
> >>> simulation studies (Srinivasan et al. 1998).
> >>>
> >>> So the problem is that the difference between the real average and
> >>> electrode-sampled average becomes worse, and it is actually very bad
> when
> >>> you are using 20 channels supported by 10-20 systems.
> >>>
> >>> Cedric, I do not see they are against using average reference when <
> 128
> >>> ch. Did you find that description elsewhere from the book?
> >>>
> >>> Jinwon, that said, from the linear algebraic point of view, it makes no
> >>> sense to say one choice of reference electrode, including average of
> >>> arbitrary combinations of electrodes, is 'worse' than another.When you
> >> use
> >>> average reference with low number of electrodes (say 20 or 30), you may
> >> be
> >>> criticized that your electrode average is severely deviated from the
> true
> >>> surface average. But using average reference does not mean you are
> >> making a
> >>> claim that your electrode average at a given frame be zero. Compared
> with
> >>> using Fz, Cz, Pz, or (digitally linked) mastoid/earlobe (physically
> liked
> >>> mastoid/earlobe is out of question) as a reference electrode, your
> >> average
> >>> potential may be still useful for certain purposes. Clarifying the
> merit
> >> of
> >>> using average reference in your case over other choices of reference
> >>> requires elaborated simulations which may not be easy or even
> realistic.
> >>> But my point is that blindly following the rule 'average reference
> >> applied
> >>> to less than 64 ch == bad' is ridiculous. For example, depending on
> your
> >>> targeted EEG phenomenon, if it has a dominant low spatial frequency,
> >>> relatively low spatial sampling by a relatively low number of
> electrodes
> >>> (which is hopefully uniformly distributed) could be more tolerable.
> >>>
> >>> If your reviewer does not write much comment on your experimental
> design
> >> or
> >>> result interpretation but just writes this kind of general and trivial
> >>> technical things about EEG, that is not a good reviewer. Send me the
> >>> reviewer's comment in a separate email and I can assess it further for
> >> you.
> >>>
> >>> Makoto
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 1:35 PM 장진원 via eeglablist
> >> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
> >>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear all,
> >>>>
> >>>> One of my reviewers has suggested that because average reference
> >> relies on
> >>>> the assumption that the electrode coverage represents a sphere, it is
> >> not
> >>>> good to average-reference with electrodes less than 64. I have used
> the
> >>>> average-referencing as recommended on
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eeglab.org/tutorials/05_Preprocess/rereferencing.html__;!!Mih3wA!D_yQ2dwBfLAhlMiue98MMVMBa2NNnbOxZRm_SDLtYScegpGg5wR7Ly9SmCRGov3uc7pP5TS6NKxNf9Zs2cdtn560dQ$
> >>>> , so I wonder
> >>>> what could be the alternative.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best Regards,
> >>>> Jinwon Chang
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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