[Eeglablist] Data change when updating eeglab from version 10 to 12

Mon Sep 16 00:43:18 PDT 2013

Dear Arno,

Thank you for your reply.
Would increase of the number of permutations make the result more stable?
Is there some rule of thumb for a suggested number of permutation for a
given data set?

Thank you
Ilana

On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Arnaud Delorme <arno at ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Dear Llana,
>
> this is because the permutation statistics use different random
> permutation every time.
> The result should be similar but not identical.
> Best,
>
> Arno
>
> On Sep 12, 2013, at 11:33 AM, Ilana Podlipsky <ilana.mlist at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Nicolas and Arno,
> I recently ran an ANOVA statistic of ERSP maps across conditions and
> encountered the same problem of inconsistency of statistics results each
> time I run the analysis.
> In short, every time I run the permutation statistics analysis I get
> different significant electrodes.
> I encountered this issue in EEGLAB 8,10 and 12 (didn't try 11).
> I see now that Nicolas reported exactly the same problem.
> Were you able to solve it?
>
> Thank you for your help,
> Ilana
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Arnaud Delorme <arno at ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Nicolas,
>>
>> your problem is worth investigating. I have checked with the tutorial
>> STUDY, and the results with parametric statistics (EEGLAB) are strictly
>> identical from one call to the next when plotting channel ERSP
>> time-frequency images or channel ERSP scalp topographies. Also since 2010,
>> we have a battery of independent test that check EEGLAB statistics agains
>> the Matlab statistics toolbox. After adding Fieldtrip statistics to the
>> EEGLAB graphic interface  last year, we also implemented the same tests for
>> these new functions (which is how we discovered a bug in Anova Fieldtrip
>> statistics by the way - currently in the process of being fixed).
>> This said, no program is perfect. Please upload your data to Bugzilla so
>> we can try reproduce the problem and see what is going on.
>>
>> http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/bugzilla
>>
>> If your data is really large (>1Gb), put it on our public FTP server
>> (ask Derrick Lock <dlock at ucsd.edu> for the address as I prefer to write
>> it here for security reasons). Let's also continue this discussion off the
>> list.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Arno
>>
>> On 2 May 2013, at 09:30, Nicolas Rochet wrote:
>>
>>  Dear Makoto and Arno,
>> To sum up: i'm using study analysis using *channels* (with GUI) to
>> compare two conditions. After further testings, i have similar issues with
>> EEGLAB version 12 and 11.05.5.4b : the stats maps (for condition
>> comparaison in ERSP / ITC analysis) are changing each time i replot
>> whatever stats option i use. Also, while ERP's topographics map are not
>> changing, the significant channels (when comparing the two conditions) are
>> changing each time i replot.
>> Strangely, those issues only happens with EEGLAB statistic's option,
>> indeed when i choose Fieldtrip stat's option, i don't have this problem:
>> the stats map remains the same after each replotting.
>>
>> cordially,
>> Nicolas
>>
>> Le 30/04/2013 17:00, Makoto Miyakoshi a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Nicolas and Arno,
>>
>>  > some of these data, the stats are changing, whatever stats option i
>> used (parametric, permutations, with or without holms correction and
>> bonferoni correction).
>>
>> Permutation results may change because this approach is based on random
>> permutation. However parametric test result should not. Could you check it
>> again?
>>
>>  > ERP's topographic map's ( the significant channels are not the same
>> each time i replot).
>>
>> Significant channels? You mean you are running STUDY analysis using
>> channels? If that's the case I'm not experienced with it.
>>
>>  However, changing topographic maps is familiar with me. However, I want
>> to know exactly what you are doing (using ICs or channels)
>>
>>  Makoto
>>
>> 2013/4/26 Nicolas Rochet <nicolas.rochet at univ-provence.fr>
>>
>>>  Hi Makoto,
>>> Firstly, I recomputed ERP, ERSP and ITC after updating to version 12. I
>>> realised that (when using the study's GUI with version 12) each time i plot
>>> some of these data, the stats are changing, whatever stats option i used
>>> (parametric, permutations, with or without holms correction and bonferoni
>>> correction).
>>> For example. when i try to compare ERSP maps in two different condition:
>>> each time i replot it, the corresponding stat map is changing while the
>>> ERSP map is the same. I had the same problem with ITC maps or for ERP's
>>> topographic map's ( the significant channels are not the same each time i
>>> replot).
>>>
>>> Do you have any idea ? Nobody seems to have reported similar issues ....
>>>
>>> Nicolas
>>>
>>> Le 18/04/2013 03:26, Makoto Miyakoshi a écrit :
>>>
>>> Dear Nicolas,
>>>
>>>  I'd be interested in learning how much the difference was. Would you
>>> mind explaining it to us?
>>>
>>>  Makoto
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/4/15 Nicolas Rochet <nicolas.rochet at univ-provence.fr>
>>>
>>>> Dear EEGLAB community,
>>>> I was previously using eeglab version 10.2.2.4b. After updating EEGLAB
>>>> to  version 12.0.2.0b (with SVN) the SAME data (ie  ERP, ERSP and ITC
>>>> grand average) processed with the study protocol are different with the
>>>> two version
>>>> Does anybody encountered similar issues ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Nicolas
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nicolas Rochet, PhD Student
>>>> Laboratoire de Neurosciences Cognitives, UMR 7291
>>>>
>>>> Université de Provence / CNRS
>>>> Pôle 3C - Case C
>>>> 3 place Victor Hugo
>>>> 13331 Marseille Cedex 03
>>>> France
>>>>
>>>> tel : (+33) 04 13 55 09 00 <%28%2B33%29%2004%2013%2055%2009%2000>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Makoto Miyakoshi
>>> Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience
>>> Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicolas Rochet, PhD Student
>>> Laboratoire de Neurosciences Cognitives, UMR 7291
>>>
>>> Université de Provence / CNRS
>>> Pôle 3C - Case C
>>> 3 place Victor Hugo
>>> 13331 Marseille Cedex 03
>>> France
>>>
>>> tel : (+33) 04 13 55 09 00
>>>
>>>
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>>> Eeglablist page: http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html
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>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Makoto Miyakoshi
>> Swartz Center for Computational Neuroscience
>> Institute for Neural Computation, University of California San Diego
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nicolas Rochet, PhD Student
>> Laboratoire de Neurosciences Cognitives, UMR 7291
>>
>> Université de Provence / CNRS
>> Pôle 3C - Case C
>> 3 place Victor Hugo
>> 13331 Marseille Cedex 03
>> France
>>
>> tel : (+33) 04 13 55 09 00
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> Eeglablist page: http://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/eeglabmail.html
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>>
>>
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>
>
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