[Eeglablist] Meaning of ITC

Fri Apr 17 09:44:52 PDT 2009

  Dear Makote, Delorme and Makieg (as you know) are the ones to read about
ITC. Just other paper you may find helpfull. Regards

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/25/50/11730
http://www.cns.atr.jp/~kawato/Ppdf/Yamagishi_Callan_Anderson_Kawato_BR2008.pdf

Carlos

2009/4/17 Makoto Miyakoshi <mataothefifth at yahoo.co.jp>

> Dear Carlos,
>
> Thank you for a lot of information. I'm overwhelmed.
> I found many of them discuss inter-neuronal phase coherence but not
> inter-trial coherence. Inter-trial coherence measures phase coherence
> ACROSS TRIALS, so it is distinguished from phase coherence across neurons.
> If you know good literatures about meaning of ITC please let me know.
>
> Makoto
>
>
>
> --- Carlos Novo <canovo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >    Dear all,
> >
> >    After reading some of the comments I just like to give you some
> > papers
> > and links that may help you
> >
> > http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/wjf/AB.Genesis.of.Meaning.pdf
> > http://www.math.nmsu.edu/~jlakey/papers/emd_eeg_revised.pdf<http://www.math.nmsu.edu/%7Ejlakey/papers/emd_eeg_revised.pdf>
> >
>
> http://coewww.rutgers.edu/classes/bme/bme450/introduction/EEGMRI_Chapter.pdf
> > http://www.kyb.mpg.de/publications/pdfs/pdf2893.pdf
> > http://www.ai.uga.edu/tonysnod/neuroscience/Logothetis_et_al(2001).pdf<http://www.ai.uga.edu/tonysnod/neuroscience/Logothetis_et_al%282001%29.pdf>
> > http://www.helsinki.fi/fgsn/courses/kuvat/Logothetis_Wandell2004.pdf
> >
> >   Best regards
> >
> >
> > Carlos
> >
> >
> > 2009/4/16 Makoto Miyakoshi <mataothefifth at yahoo.co.jp>
> >
> > > Dear Pal,
> > >
> > > >From this reply I hope our communication is normally logged on the
> > > eeglablist.
> > >
> > > Yes, the Bereitshcafts Potentials seems a good example, if the
> > potential
> > > were constructed by phase locking (I'm not sure on this point). By
> > the way,
> > > could you specify 'Alan Gevins works from around 1984' which I
> > could not
> > > find? I want to take a look at the illustrations.
> > >
> > > The immediate meaning of ITC is 'trial-by-trial EEG phase coherency
> > at a
> > > certain IC/scalp channel, time bin, and frequency range, is likely
> > to be
> > > this much'. It only reflects (at least in princiele) the timing of
> > neural
> > > firing (large portion of neurons), and does not reflect the amount
> > of it
> > > (though ERSP and BOLD do, in constrast, in my understanding).
> > Certainly, a
> > > physiological meaning of ITC is a event-related 'timing' of
> > neuronal
> > > firing.
> > >
> > > So, my question again may be: what is the 'psychological' meaning
> > of ITC
> > > increase/decrease, given that it does not reflect increase/decrease
> > of
> > > involved neuronal activity? Maybe I'm too much used to a simple
> > schema that
> > > associates ERSP/BOLD increase with 'activation' of a certain
> > portion of
> > > neurons.
> > >
> > > Makoto
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- P $B>-%% (Bl Gunnar Larsson <Pal.Gunnar.Larsson at epilepsy.no>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Makoto
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Pal,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for the reply. It is very informative and
> > interesting...
> > > > > almost exciting.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me, however, that the term 'synchronization' is
> > used in
> > > > > different meanings between you and me. Maybe you mean it in a
> > sense
> > > > of
> > > > > 'synchronized firing among neurons at a given moment', right?
> > There
> > > > are
> > > > > actually papers that report inter-channel coherency, and that
> > is
> > > > > certainly a kind of synchronization. But the concept of ITC is
> > > > 'inter-
> > > > > trial'
> > > > > synchrony: it compares EEG phases AMONG TRIALS and measure
> > phase
> > > > > variance, so it had nothing to do with inter-channel phase
> > > > synchrony.
> > > >
> > > > You do have a point. I don't know your research at all. Is inter
> > > > trial between stimuli or between sessions or between persons? I
> > have
> > > > not thought this through, but I was thinking between stimuli and
> > > > something not unlike to bereitschaft-potentials, but mainly my
> > pont
> > > > was on the relation betwen bold and EEG.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe we'd better create a term 'Inter-neuronal coherency
> > (INC)' in
> > > > > contrast with inter-trial coherency (ITC).
> > > > Coherency in EEG was very popular, but it did not lead to very
> > much
> > > > more than some papers. One of hte main reasons was that spatial
> > > > filters were not applied (except by Gevins) and hence there were
> > too
> > > > much blurring of the findings. I guess you should look at Alan
> > Gevins
> > > > works from around 1984. He did 128 channel EEG and made arrows
> > > > showing coherences and latencies between brain areas. His
> > > > illustrations have been widely used in the literature. To my
> > > > knowledge he did not look at ITC.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm analyzing my EEG data and found some experimental effect in
> > > > ITC,
> > > > > but I have no idea how to interpret it... because theoretically
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > not related to neither ERSP (EEG power) nor BOLD.
> > > > Back to bereitschaft - there is no expectance in this?
> > > > >
> > > > > I will ask EEGLABlist technicians how to post our
> > communications to
> > > > the
> > > > > list. By the way, so far you are the only person who replied.
> > My
> > > > > gratitude is all yours (haha).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > P $B%;%e<+ (Bl
> > > >
> > > > > Makoto
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- P $B<@</<'<' (Bl Gunnar Larsson
> > <Pal.Gunnar.Larsson at epilepsy.no>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Makoto
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First - I thought it went back to the list, but did not check
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > that it did.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My points was mostly towards the Nunez take on this;
> > > > synchronization
> > > > > > does not require energy. Hence synchrony comes out with high
> > EEG-
> > > > > power
> > > > > > and no BOLD-effect. On the other hand, interneurons in cortex
> > are
> > > > so
> > > > > > symmetrical that they do not show up on EEG, but consumes
> > quite a
> > > > bit
> > > > > > of energy and will be well seen in fMRI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to the above, your phase locking(?) would be
> > expected
> > > > to
> > > > > > influence EEG-power but not BOLD (or ?).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another point from Nunez: If you have a million stochastic
> > firing
> > > > > > neurons, they would give a resultant amplitude of A*sqrt(n)
> > where
> > > > A
> > > > > is
> > > > > > the amplitude and n is number of neurons. However, when they
> > are
> > > > > > synchronized, the amplitude is n*A. So a million neurons will
> > > > show
> > > > > > same amplitude as 1000 synchronized neurons! This gives that
> > > > small
> > > > > > systems may dominate the EEG you record.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > P $B<'<=<'t@<- (Bl
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> > > > > > Fra: Makoto Miyakoshi [mailto:mataothefifth at yahoo.co.jp]
> > > > > > Sendt: 14. april 2009 03:54
> > > > > > Til: P $B<'<=<'t@<- (Bl Gunnar Larsson
> > > > > > Emne: RE: [Eeglablist] Meaning of ITC
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Pal,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your fast response and information.
> > > > > > Neurovascular coupling is the essential phenomenon with BOLD
> > and
> > > > it
> > > > > > has totally different time constant than EEG... that is fine
> > with
> > > > me.
> > > > > > That said, what I'm wondering is the meaning of ITC. On the
> > one
> > > > hand,
> > > > > > ERSP is a measure of EEG power, which most likely reflects
> > sum of
> > > > > > regional neuronal activities, which should be associated with
> > > > BOLD
> > > > > via
> > > > > > neurovascular coupling (in principle). On the other hand, ITC
> > has
> > > > > > nothing to do with EEG power, since it is a measure of
> > > > inter-trial
> > > > > > phase variance, therefore it should not affect BOLD either.
> > Then,
> > > > > what
> > > > > > is the meaning of ITC in contrast with ERSP/BOLD?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By the way, your response does not seem to be sent to EEGLAB
> > > > list.
> > > > > > Why don't we re-send it to the list?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- P $B<><B<><1<><)<><) (Bl Gunnar Larsson
> > > <Pal.Gunnar.Larsson at epilepsy.no>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think you should read the paper by PL Nunez on the
> > relation
> > > > > > between
> > > > > > > EEG and fMRI from 2000 (or 1999?). EEG and BOLD is very
> > > > different
> > > > > > > entities. Also, the EEG- parameters are direct functional
> > > > measures
> > > > > > > which gives responsen from a few miliseconds to some
> > seconds
> > > > > > > (Pfurtscheller). BOLD on the other hand, is the change in
> > > > > > oxygenation
> > > > > > > due to change in bloodflow due to change in energy
> > consumption
> > > > due
> > > > > > > change in activity. Hence the effect is very indirect and
> > shows
> > > > a
> > > > > > > maximum after some 5s. E.G. AM Dale et al has shown some
> > nice
> > > > use
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the BOLD and EEG/MEG so there no reason to discard one,
> > just
> > > > use
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > care.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > P $B<><)<><?<><)<#<(<></ (Bl
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> > > > > > > Fra: eeglablist-bounces at sccn.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > [mailto:eeglablist-bounces at sccn.ucsd.edu] P
> > $B<><)<><?<><)<#<(<></
> > > (B
> > > vegne av
> > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > Miyakoshi
> > > > > > > Sendt: 10. april 2009 11:25
> > > > > > > Til: eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > Emne: [Eeglablist] Meaning of ITC
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear experts,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me take a question about a basic physiology.
> > > > > > > In my intuition, ERSP (i.e. EEG power) is related to
> > neuronal
> > > > > > > activation, either firing frequency or number of firing
> > cells.
> > > > On
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > other hand, ITC (i.e. inter-trial EEG phase) is NOT
> > directly
> > > > > > related
> > > > > > > to them. So, by observing ITC, we may be observing some
> > already
> > > > > > > systematized temporal responsibility of the given network,
> > > > which is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > too complicated and abstract to imagine, compared to the
> > case
> > > > of
> > > > > > > neuronal firing simply increasing/decreasing.  Does it
> > mean,
> > > > then,
> > > > > > ITC
> > > > > > > is a totally different index than, for example, BOLD?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Makoto
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Carlos A. Novo Olivas
> > Neurociencia Cl将ソnica
> > Neurofisiolog将ソa Cl将ソnica
> >
> > Oficina: 8143 0754
> > Cel: 8115 784089
> > www.neuroscopic.com
> > www.ania.org.mx
> >
>
>

-- 
Dr. Carlos A. Novo Olivas
Neurociencia Clínica
Neurofisiología Clínica

Oficina: 8143 0754
Cel: 8115 784089
www.neuroscopic.com
www.ania.org.mx
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