[Eeglablist] From Unipolar to Bipolar Montages

Sun May 10 07:14:08 PDT 2020

Dear Colleague, what could I add?

Your experience will be a milestone for me in my training towards the
knowledge of an instrument like EEGLAB. As you write well, clinical and
engineering are not always able to find solutions that are good for both. I
think the collaboration between these two worlds will benefit science and
health. I have been working with engineers for a while and continue to have
the same problems that you describe. I am only in difficulty because I do
not yet have the economic possibilities for purchasing more suitable
solutions for the clinic that often require a lot of money. I was hoping
that an experimental and open to research tool like EEGLAB would do it but
as you have explained to me very well it is not like that. I will use
EEGLAB for analysis and for everything that will develop and I will also
contribute as far as possible to its success. However, I ask you if you can
recommend a free tool that helps me (EEGwin is a commercial product).

Thanks again for your availability, your knowledge and your advices.

Many thanks also to the other colleagues, I will try their solutions as
soon as possible. In this period I am very busy learning the basics of
programming to be able to have some freedom in knowledge in the use of
these powerful means of science.

Massimo Valerio

Il giorno dom 10 mag 2020 alle ore 01:12 Dr. Michael Villanueva <
mvillanueva at alphathetacenter.com> ha scritto:

> Believe me Massimo, I had the very same question: Back In 2016 I went to
> my first EEGLAB workshop, and asked: "How do you rearrange the channel
> order so to look at the EEG in different montages?"  The next 5-10 minutes
> of conversation with an  SCCN engineer were nearly nonsensical: He was
> utterly flummoxed, asking several times over "Why would you want to do
> that?" The more I explained the why and how we (in neurofeedback land)
> routinely reordered montages against various references, the more
> non-sensical we became to each other.  In hindsight it was singularly the
> most illuminating conversation I have ever had with a neuroscientist.
>
> EEGLAB is designed for source space, not scalp space. Whereas tools like
> WinEEG are great for visual clinical analysis of EEG in scalp space,
> statistical and numerical analysis are the correct (and only viable) tools
> in source space.  EEGLAB is a clinical research tool that relies on
> statistical and numerical computation to understand brain function; as a
> research tool rooted in source space, it does not readily lend itself to
> forming visually-based clinical diagnostic impressions extracted from the
> raw channel EEG.  Using learning to pilot an aircraft as a metaphor might
> be helpful to you:  When you learn to pilot an aircraft, you are trained to
> fly by visual rules, commonly called "VFR" (Visual Flight Rules); however,
> as you advance, you learn to fly only by use of  your cockpit instruments,
> commonly called IFR (Instrument Flight Rules).  You can think of
> neuroscientists who use EEGLAB are using IFR to statistically and
> numerically navigate brain sources; while clinicians like
> electro-neurophysiologists, neurologists, and neurofeedback providers use
> VFR to connect observable pathology to the individual EEG.  Both groups
> operate in "EEG Space" but one specializes in Source Space and the other in
> Scalp Space.
>
> Even if you took the time using MATLAB to code various montages as Arnaud
> suggested, EEGLAB would still be less than adequate.  First, the resultant
> re-montaged raw EEG would not have the channel EEG visual resolution a
> commercial program like WinEEG already has. Secondly, using Plot > Channel
> data (scroll) would be painfully slow, and, as such, scanning for transient
> discharges or watching shifting vigilance states in different montages
> would be hellish. Thirdly, there is no clinically suitable channel based
> Power Spectrum Density function in EEGLAB.  While Tools >  Channel spectra
> and maps is ok, the frequency resolution combined with the default log
> power scale occults the variances in power-squared clinical frequency
> information most useful to us. Could you make a better power spectra graph
> and maps visual tool in MATLAB?  Given enough time and training, yes;
> however, if you are just starting in MATLAB as you say you are, it would be
> a rough ride.
>
> In her native source space, EEGLAB is nimble, agile, and powerful; in
> scalp space, she is hobbled and painfully slow.
>
> For 4 years now, we use WinEEG and ICA in our clinical practice for rapid
> visual-based clinical examination of the raw in accordance with standard
> electroencephalography.  We do think EEGLAB has untapped and unexplored
> clinical strengths in several areas, notably multiple model AMICA, however
> (for us) at this time there is no easy co-existence between source and
> scalp space. There is simply too much we do not know about the brain.
>
> My advice to you after this lengthy discussion is to forget about forcing
> EEGLAB into visual clinical work: such efforts are a distraction and a Red
> Herring. Instead, combine EEGLAB source space strengths with free or
> commercial programs designed for clinical electrophysiology analysis and
> simply observe. Personally,  I think the hours spent learning how to code
> and develop work arounds in MATLAB would be far, far better spent learning
> the clinical applications of AMICA and ERPs and how to create peer
> survivable research study designs,
>
> Once you intuitively grasp EEGLAB is all about source space and not scalp
> space, once you understand (or believe) the time series data recorded at
> each channel location is a linear sum of all biological and environmental
> electrical activity, your learning will accelerate: you will make intuitive
> use of ICA and ERPs in your future clinical formulations, your questions
> will be more intelligible to the engineers who will help guide you, and
> your research contributions will be firmly rooted in neuroscience.
>
> Best of luck
>
> Michael Villanueva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eeglablist <eeglablist-bounces at sccn.ucsd.edu> On Behalf Of Massimo
> Valerio
> Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 2:09 AM
> To: Scott Makeig <smakeig at ucsd.edu>
> Cc: eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] From Unipolar to Bipolar Montages
>
> Dear Scott Smakeig,
> I see the EEG in bipolar mode during my clinical activity. I learned
> almost exclusively to report the EEG in this way. I work in a pediatric
> hospital and I use several different bipolar montages. I'm new also in
> matlab coding. I will try to follow your advice but I was hoping to find a
> tool.
> Thanks for your help. Massimo Valerio
>
> Il giorno sab 2 mag 2020 alle ore 22:58 Scott Makeig <smakeig at ucsd.edu> ha
> scritto:
>
> > Massimo -
> >
> > I have not heard such a request before, and do not believe there is an
> > EEGLAB tool dedicated to doing this, though a function or script for
> > doing this in a fixed way should not be difficult to write.
> >
> > Scott Makeig
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 11:30 AM Massimo Valerio
> > <massimo.valerio at unito.it>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, I'm newuser of EEGLab.
> >> Please, could you give me information about to visualize through Plot
> >> > Channel Data (scroll) the EEG in unipolar montage to bipolar
> >> (example, longitudinal montage). I tried to look for extensions and
> >> plugin in EEGLab without success. Thanks and regards.
> >> Massimo Valerio
> >>
> >> <
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Makeig, Research Scientist and Director, Swartz Center for
> > Computational Neuroscience, Institute for Neural Computation,
> > University of California San Diego, La Jolla CA 92093-0961,
> > http://sccn.ucsd.edu/~scott
> >
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