[Eeglablist] EEGLAB Orientation

Sun Dec 8 19:44:13 PST 2024

Agreed!  It definitely depends on the data and the application. I tend 
towards a more conservative 5% trimming for robust ANOVAs, in part 
because folks still seem skittish about them.  I think it is a bit odd 
that there is so much concern about a "replication crisis," with so 
little attention paid to the severe and known problems with the 
conventional ANOVA tests themselves.  My EP Toolkit makes robust ANOVAs 
easy to use, but I see very little awareness of them.  The field 
continues to be mired in 1960's statistics.  Sigh...

Joe

On 12/6/24 10:11, Makoto Miyakoshi via eeglablist wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> Thank you for your valuable input. I definitely agree with you, based on my
> non-systematic observations too.
>
> It is good to learn that the developers of robust ANOVAs recommended 20%
> trimming and your recommendation of 5% trimming.
>
> I think there is a psychological factor here; how much robustness one
> requires reflects how deeply traumatized one is from past experiences of
> EEG processing. I tend to be on the side of safety, and I have published
> EEG datasets recorded from subjects walking around mazes, ticing patients,
> and performance of three-ball juggling (in prep), repeated lifting of a
> heavy box (in prep), etc. If I know my data are from laboratory recordings,
> I would definitely use 5% trimming.
>
> Makoto
>
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2024 at 5:57 PM Joseph Dien via eeglablist <
> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> I think it's an empirical question.  If you're using a median, you are
>> in effect relying on a single data point (albeit a median one) and it
>> will have some amount of noise too.  The question then is whether the
>> noise you throw out with the rest of the points outweighs the signal
>> that you throw out with the rest of the points.  Or to put it another
>> way, median is a great way to eliminate high amplitude noise, but not
>> necessarily low amplitude noise.  A graphic example that comes from my
>> non-systematic observations of median averaging for ERPs (using my EP
>> Toolkit), at least, is that it can give rise to sharp discontinuities in
>> the waveform.  I imagine a similar effect could happen in
>> frequency-space.  For robust ANOVAs, the developers (Wilcox, Keselman,
>> Lix, Algina, et al) generally also recommend a 20% trim, but after
>> mucking around with ERP data (again using my EP Toolkit), I came to the
>> conclusion that a modest 5% trim was the better way to go (assuming n>=
>> 20).  Still unsystematic, though.
>>
>> Definitely worth looking at!
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/5/24 11:30, Makoto Miyakoshi via eeglablist wrote:
>>> Hi Cedric,
>>>
>>> If you decide not to perform any signal processing for so called data
>>> cleaning, do you think 20% trimming is trustworthy enough? I know it
>>> is an empirical question. But in theory, median's breakdown point is 50%.
>>> Since 50%>20%, why not?
>>>
>>> Cyril once told me that if people assume Gaussian distributions
>> everywhere
>>> anyway, why not use median? Good point.
>>>
>>> Makoto
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2024 at 7:50 AM Cedric Cannard via eeglablist <
>>> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I have long thought that the averaging process in Welch's method should
>>>> be replaced with median because EEG recordings can contain pretty bad
>>>> outliers.
>>>>
>>>> I recommend 20% trimmed mean :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cedric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, November 25th, 2024 at 12:25 PM, Makoto Miyakoshi via
>>>> eeglablist <eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Arno and all
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your input.
>>>>> I recommend people posted here try that plugin and tell me what it
>> does.
>>>>> eegfiltnew() and fir_filt() are close enough, if you just
>>>>> need band-specific powers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Makoto
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 12:43 AM Arnaud Delorme via eeglablist <
>>>>> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For extracting brainwaves at specific frequencies, I would advise
>> using
>>>>>> the eegstats EEGLAB plugin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2024, at 22:09, Meha Fatima via eeglablist <
>>>>>>> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi. Thank you for this opportunity. I'd like to join in, too. Can you
>>>>>>> please share the Zoom link?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 22 Nov 2024 at 23:34, Makoto Miyakoshi via eeglablist <
>>>>>>> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Devvarta,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could you please open this zoom session for others as well?
>>>>>>>> Sure, gather as many participants as you want and let them ask as
>>>> many
>>>>>>>> questions as necessary.
>>>>>>>> I'll be available after 7:00 am in New York time (EST) which is
>>>> 5:30 pm
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> Bangalore. I prefer it in the morning rather than the
>>>> evening/night.
>>>>>>>> I notice that there has been a large and constant need for
>>>> extracting
>>>>>>>> EEG
>>>>>>>> power using EEGLAB, which is only partially supported by GUI.
>>>>>>>> After our discussion, maybe I can summarize the requested
>>>>>>>> functionalities
>>>>>>>> into a solution in the form of EEGLAB plugin. It should be pretty
>>>> easy.
>>>>>>>> What I want to know is the type of output format you need most. Is
>>>> it
>>>>>>>> ascii
>>>>>>>> or Excel? Do you want a result in linear scale (microV^2) or in
>>>> dB? Do
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want a mean power within a frequency band (with SD across sliding
>>>>>>>> windows)
>>>>>>>> or full freq bin resolution (which is already available in EEGLAB
>>>>>>>> spectopo)
>>>>>>>> etc..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like the idea of robust PSD proposed by Melman and Victor (2016)
>>>> so
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> you do not need to worry too much about data cleaning.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4903894/__;!!Mih3wA!Hc_qvUxHKj94lakBpoAoDLDmyqzks4elWCUSSecAgiLfWsompHx83bc4_GJA8f1FYPh9Rceqb8iycYCC-UFVaSR4uL8$
>>>>>>>> I have long thought that the averaging process in Welch's method
>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> replaced with median because EEG recordings can contain pretty bad
>>>>>>>> outliers. At least, outcomes from Welch's method by mean and
>>>> median can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> compared to evaluate the window-mean PSD's deviation from the
>>>>>>>> window-median
>>>>>>>> PSD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Grace, if this selection of time does not work for you, we can set
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> separate Zoom meeting. Tell me what time zone you are in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Makoto
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2024 at 3:42 AM Devvarta Kumar <
>>>>>>>> devvarta.k at nimhans.ac.in>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Mokoto
>>>>>>>>> I assume many of us would be interested in understanding the
>>>> process of
>>>>>>>>> calculating power in different bands in raw EEG. Could you
>>>> please open
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> zoom session for others as well?
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Devvarta Kumar, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Professor
>>>>>>>>> Department of Clinical Psychology
>>>>>>>>> M. V. Govindaswamy Building
>>>>>>>>> National Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences,
>>>>>>>>> Hosur Road,
>>>>>>>>> Bangalore,
>>>>>>>>> Karnataka-560029
>>>>>>>>> India
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ph: +91-80-26995188
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.nimhans.ac.in/users/dr-devvarta-kumar__;!!Mih3wA!E8Vsq9Vu8Q4ZAl8UIb5elP9m72UAtG-_h15RsH4N7qURhjnEctf1NKia1NpntFgQlL_UtZbHh_sQjnDjaxBj7B3Oazg$
>>>>>>>>> ResearchGate:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Devvarta_Kumar/contributions__;!!Mih3wA!E8Vsq9Vu8Q4ZAl8UIb5elP9m72UAtG-_h15RsH4N7qURhjnEctf1NKia1NpntFgQlL_UtZbHh_sQjnDjaxBj8leJO1o$
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> To: eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2024 1:51:05 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Eeglablist] EEGLAB Orientation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Grace,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If your group wants to Zoom with me, I'll be available. Which
>>>> time zone
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> you in?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Makoto
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2024 at 2:50 PM Grace Bang via eeglablist <
>>>>>>>>> eeglablist at sccn.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are 3rd year medical students trying to conduct research
>>>> where we
>>>>>>>>>> collect brain wave activity data using the CGX Patch 2-channel
>>>> EEG.
>>>>>>>>>> We've
>>>>>>>>>> been having a lot of issues trying to navigate how to use
>>>> EEGLAB to
>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>> the data. We just want to be able to quantify the number of
>>>> alpha and
>>>>>>>>>> beta
>>>>>>>>>> waves present in the raw data. The resources we've read online
>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>> somewhat helpful, but we are looking for someone who can jump
>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>> Zoom/phone call to help fill some gaps of knowledge. Neither
>>>> of us
>>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>>> background in more complicated softwares/coding/EEGs so any
>>>> guidance
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> be greatly appreciated!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Grace Bang, OMS-3
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * Dr. Meha Fatima BSMT, Ph.D.*
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> Dow Institute of Medical
>>>>>>> Technology
>>>>>>> Dow University of Health Sciences
>>>>>>> mehafatima1 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> mehafatima1 at gmail.com.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Dien, PhD
Senior Research Scientist
Department of Human Development and Quantitative Methodology
University of Maryland, College Park
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://joedien.com__;!!Mih3wA!F0eaU-cVQEnR4py5rJjda2ULVa9FGrPCPmsQtgXL7IUtxwwzJLgmIKRtIG-xy8RTjfoVhALfeyt1ZVZx0rc$ 